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I hold no secret knowledge. Not even the illusion of such. What I know is that we know little enough of these creatures, cultured or not they may be. Dwellers, again, are my more concern. Maybe peace is possible, but I've seen no sign of it. Indeed, I've seen no sign of unaggressive Dwellers. And I hold their hosting of undead in seeming fortresses very suspect.

Relax my willingness to fight them? Maybe. But I have my doubts.

We've no method of knowing a desire for peace is shared. And so I fear for the individuals who might enter a Dweller force armed only with such desire. Do we even share a tongue? Several hundred years ago, ours making peace desires came away empty hands. No historical account contact was made in the first.

We've some deeply troubling powers arising. It's all well and good to want peace with these warsome critters, but you propose no way to go about it, and none is evident. Tell initiates they have options? Certainly, but I doubt the Dwellers are keeping count. And if the Dwellers have no interest in peace, then we're lying to newcoming initiates, so strong is our desire to proclaim our ancestors bloodthirsty barbarians.

Peace within the world is surely my deepest desire. Why should we not tell initiates of the choices they have, my friend? The truest freedom they have is that of who they would have themselves be. If Branishor comes free of its troubles, I should surely wish to ask of them further knowledge of the Sea Dwellers as they seem to have gathered. I worry that Branishor in its troubles may be unable - or more terribly, unwilling - to aid in such at present.

Still holding it's a lie to the initiates, fellow. Not for the telling, but for the likeliest of how it's gone about - claiming we raid them in their homes. I have never slain an unarmed or even lightly armed Sea Dweller. Warriors and warlords, the lot. It lends me to wariness.

Suppose information might be hard if this was wanted, too. Do you expect we'd be able of carrying out the footwork involved? Mayhaps the very talk've such is treason, but that en't here or there. It's all rather much a mess of circumstances, eh?

Initial war with the Sea Dwellers is sadly inevitable. Unless one wishes to wait until their 20th training, any initiate needs the Sea King's scepter! However, once it is earned, should the dwellers not be left in peace? If you wish for a way to speak with them of this, Go speak with the King! I'll even march down there and attempt it!

There are rumors, old ones mind you, that Valorn once traded with Sea Dwellers. They even were civilized to the point of having under water cities! Let's take the chance that these rumors are true. Their barbarian state now, as history seems to show, would be caused by the wars with the demons. Should we not offer a hand of peace, letting them know we are not the ones to fear?

Regardless of personal feelings regarding dwellers, the how and why on achieving harmony / peace with dwellers and if it is possible, fighting armed vs unarmed...blah blah blah...etc. there is nothing wrong with giving out the facts so people have the knowledge needed to make their own decisions. And the simple fact is that we have the gift of choice - and one does not need to kill the dwellers to gain their profession if willing to wait until a higher advancement.

Just because attempts at peace failed in the past does not mean we should give up any further attempts. Whatever or however those attempts could be is something positive and worth at least discussing / sharing ideas.

Rumors of a history so far back we can't even barely grasp the most general of details is a hard history to refer to for now, fellow. I en't saying there is no chance they are civilized in some way - that much is obvious. I've heard yet no history of amenable time shared with them that en't mired in a fog of might-as-well-be-myth.

Never argued also, that facts shouldn't be distributed. Mayhaps initiates should be pointed to the Caer library if they've a wish to learn what's known? I've certainly no qualms of such, nor'd I deny any initiate the admission that there's grounds for an uncertainty of it all.

Everyone, remember how exciting it felt to be an initiate, waiting to go to temple? How anxious and impatient and LONG the wait is to take that walk? From a new players perspective, suggesting to wait until level 20 is simply cruel and unnecessary to the initiates, who should be at least as important as the non-sentient creatures we are talking about. I have yet to meet a gremlin OR a sea-dweller who could interact with me in any way besides battle.

And yes, I was made aware of the option to wait till level 20. I am a hateful, evil, spiteful human who chose to attack another to get what I wanted now instead of wait. I'll own that. But I still make great cookies.

-Col Oratura-
Wielder of the Wicked Wooden Spoon

*Points in the book as he grins wide and excitedly exclaims* I found it! The proof! In the book of Flora and Fauna, under Sea Dwellers, it states that Sea Dwellers were, in fact, allies of Valorn at one time! This was during the time of the Golden Age. The Cataclysm is what ruined their homes and scattered their race. They currently, from what I've found in my studies, feud with both humans and demons, blaming both parties! They also believe, or so it says here *points to the book* a superstition that if they defeat us their kingdoms will return! If we could somehow show them that this is impossible, and also the war with Balth is over!? Well? who knows, right??

I would rather not recall my days as an initiate. I was mostly clueless and never fully understanding with how anything worked thanks to manipulations and the lack of any real guidance from my supposed sponsor so had no anxiety about the temple - just many unanswered questions. Inside was a whole other story ....

My dear Col, no one is suggesting initates are not important by offering them a choice that is their own to make. And none shall fall into the depths of despair should they make the decision to wait - and if they did it would prove my point that patience and self growth is something from which we could all benefit. If it helps towards reconciliation / restoring peace with the sea dwellers - all the better.

Viviyana wrote:It never seems to fail that every time we start to get a good debate on ideas going, someone comes along to try and bring it down to the level of personal attacks. I really had thought you more skilled than that, Kade. Disappointing. They say a person resorts to personal attacks when they run out of the ability to defend their position. I am sure you can prove that that is not the case in this instance, should you wish.

You seem awfully sensitive here Viv, I have only defended my position using the knowledge we currently have, not the hopes and dreams of a bleeding heart. Maybe you are actually far more clever than I had expected. Perhaps this is your attempt to fill in the void left behind by Balthazar? Starting to gather up his weakest forces first hmmm? If this is not your plan then I would say do better research the next time you choose to champion a cause. Especially one as ridiculous as this.

As to your disappointment in me, I personally don't care. I have no allegiance to you. You are not my friend or someone I trust. In fact you are the one who enjoys going around running off your mouth about me and my guild. How's that for personal attacks?

krystoff wrote:*Points in the book as he grins wide and excitedly exclaims* I found it! The proof! In the book of Flora and Fauna, under Sea Dwellers, it states that Sea Dwellers were, in fact, allies of Valorn at one time! This was during the time of the Golden Age. The Cataclysm is what ruined their homes and scattered their race. They currently, from what I've found in my studies, feud with both humans and demons, blaming both parties! They also believe, or so it says here *points to the book* a superstition that if they defeat us their kingdoms will return! If we could somehow show them that this is impossible, and also the war with Balth is over!? Well? who knows, right??

Ack, I's read tha same book an sooch. Be sure tah 'member tha' we's tried tah send em ah messenger an they's rebuked oos. May'aps et be different thees time, but I's nah sew sure, goodly Krystof.

While I's would like tha idea 'o peace ah goodly ah'mount et seems tha' we's nah facin' ah war, but mo' 'o ah way 'o life an sooch.

E'ry place 'as ah circle. Wolves eat tha bos... tha wolf dies an becomes grass... tha bos eats tha grass. Et soot 'o be connected, aye? Gremlins may be sentient an awl, but they's 'ave ah existence an lifestyle 'o they's own an sooch. Nah sense en MAKIN' 'em be who-man like oos, aye? Why they's 'ave tah walk an talk an be awl nice like oos? Wha' if they's like tah be irritable an pesky, eh?

*Nods and finishes his oration with a grunt and a snort*

I was not aware it's been tried before, thank you. I agree with the whole "way of life" but something has been stirring in the back of my mind since the Walk to Miranda's. A silent warning, if you will. Like the calm before a storm. I personally feel we will need large numbers of allies, even if some of those are ones we'd otherwise shun.